Cybertruck FSD brain

[Dids]

This website is filled with dream sheet wish list requests for the CT. Some realistic today, some not. But make a request that the FSD "brain" not be manufactured in China, and it's met with more cynicism then most other requests.

Maybe I should have phrased the opening post differently.

I'm not asking what is possible today...nor do I think is Tesla. I'm asking what direction do we want to go? I'll concede it will be more expensive if produced in the U.S. But it's one part of an optional add on, to a $50k - $80k truck.

The gist of my question is if given the choice, and given equal quality product, would you rather have the "brain" made in China or the US?

Honestly I'm not sure, am I safer if I'm being tracked by an American company / government over being tracked by a Chinese government?
Snowden raised so serious concerns about what the US does on tracking and the US also imprisons without charges some people ( terrorists), assassinates without convictions (also terrorists overseas). How hard would it be for the US government to make look like I'm a terrorist and disappear me?
Facebook and Google track my online activity then use AI to manipulate my thoughts so that they can sell my attention (see social dilemma on netflix) to any bidder including foreign advisories who would like to foment civil war.
So am I in more danger if the Chinese install nefarious software? So far the Chinese haven't done anything to me, indeed they have done less to me than my own government and domestic corporations have done.
Will they? I don't know.

Advertisement

 

[showmemo]

I think in both cases, its much less about 'tracking' and more about using the tracking info for coercion. Watch 'the social dilemma' on Netflix if you haven't already...

** puts on tinfoil hat, goes to secret underground bunker, and loads shotguns ** /s

 

[TruckElectric]

So am I in more danger if the Chinese install nefarious software? So far the Chinese haven't done anything to me, indeed they have done less to me than my own government and domestic corporations have done.
Will they? I don't know.

I don't think you or anyone individual is at risk. The malware is intended to gather information the U.S. Government deems as spying.

 

[Dids]

I don't think you or anyone individual is at risk. The malware is intended to gather information the U.S. Government deems as spying.

I am not trying to condone Chinese spying, I am mearly saying a knee jerk reaction that Chinese spying is more harmful than domestic spying is not a thoughtful position. During the cold war Russia and the USA spied on each other. The information from that spying prevented the war going hot where we all would have lost alot more than we lost to the other side spying.
Yes the Chinese spy and steal intellectual property, so do we.
Yes factories pollute, they would here if they were here. So China should not have factories? The only modernization method open to them.
For the people that want chips to be manufactured here do you want to live down wind to an industry that uses phosphine? ( Smells like satan's spawn's diapers).

 

[TruckElectric]

Yes the Chinese spy and steal intellectual property, so do we.

The U.S. does spy. Does the U.S. steal intellectual property? I haven't heard any allegations that the U.S. does but it seems to be common knowledge China is notorious for it.

 

[lancethibault]

For the people that want chips to be manufactured here do you want to live down wind to an industry that uses phosphine? ( Smells like satan's spawn's diapers).

Nope. Sure don't. But, I don't want anyone to have to live next to a stench. Sounds like this would be part of the environment stance that Tesla would be trying to innovate around and find a better way. Can it be done without phosphine at a higher cost here? How much higher? Is it worth the trade off for the environmental impacts and labor implications? Lets not forget that Tesla is suing due to tariffs that they claim are costing them $ (I say claim because I would assume the cost is passed onto the customer, meaning it's probably a gross loss, but not necessarily a net loss). I know the tariffs won't live on forever, but who knows how long they will continue...they could avoid the tariff cost by producing here. So taking into account the tariffs maybe it's not too overly expensive to produce here.

 

[Dids]

The U.S. does spy. Does the U.S. steal intellectual property? I haven't heard any allegations that the U.S. does but it seems to be common knowledge China is notorious for it.

Does China steal IP? Most of what the US currently calls theft is codified as technical cooperation, joint ventures or equity ownerships subject to government licenses which the US agreed to only 40 years ago. It is actually duplicitous to call it theft when the IP was supposed to be shared in exchange for the Chinese allowing the factories to come there.
Does the US steal IP. Yup tiktok

 

[Crissa]

P.S. If you want American electronics manufacturing capabilities, let's do build that in parallel with the CT. I'd love to build (and own) part of that value chain, but investors (especially SV-style tech VCs) simply aren't interested in capital intensive low margin businesses like this. They're looking for those 10,000-to-1 payoffs, not a 1.1-to-1 payoff YOY. Until that changes, CN/HK/TW contract manufacturers will be better, faster, AND cheaper.

This is so true. We're in an investment glut, and yet, a steady profit of a basic business can't get decent loans. All the investors are chasing 'Pokemon profits' - they want that big score. Hence piling into Tesla this summer and over inflating it. (Tho that's good for our Cybertrucks, it's bad for businesses we want to go to with our trucks)

The supply chain is an issue if critical components are being produced in China. It is a fact that China has injected malware or other nefarious software onto chips they manufacture. Very nefarious software. Think along the lines of what we did to Iran’s centrifuges.

This did happen, or at least, looks like it did. So we do have to be careful. That's why owning production (like Tesla is doing) or open-source is so important. Very hard to insert stuff when people are watching.

-Crissa

 

[Luke42]

Does China steal IP? Most of what the US currently calls theft is codified as technical cooperation, joint ventures or equity ownerships subject to government licenses which the US agreed to only 40 years ago. It is actually duplicitous to call it theft when the IP was supposed to be shared in exchange for the Chinese allowing the factories to come there.

The Chinese factories I work with are legit contract manufacturers (CMs). They make money as contract manufacturers, and have little incentive to steal IP. Chinese contracts look kind of foreign, they're still contracts -- and Chinese business law has a lot of the same provisions as US business law (misrepresenting your product as something it isn't is still illegal).

My employer did have a CM in Hong Kong which tried to sell house-branded products based on our products. My employer ceased doing business with them, and the CM went out of business shortly afterwards.

We do take steps to safeguard our IP but, honestly, those safeguards would be sensible when working with a US-based CM, too.

Doing business in China is civilized, even if it's downright foreign in many ways.

The gist of my question is if given the choice, and given equal quality product, would you rather have the "brain" made in China or the US?

Facing reality is not a cynical act.

Patriotism:
Sure, made in the USA is great!

You're a proud American, I'm a proud American! Yay! Let's all sing the Star Spangled Banner and reflect on our shared patriotism! That was fun, but it didn't build a factory.

Reality:
The condition you presuppose ("equal quality product") is a hypothetical, and recognizing this fact is realistic not cynical.

Getting electronics manufactured in the existing electronics manufacturing hubs is better faster AND cheaper. There are a lot of world-class engineers/workers/administrators working at the higher-end Chinese CMs, and they're really good at what they do.

Building the capability to compete with this in the United States would be an expensive multi-decade project.

If I built an electronics factory here in the United States, it wouldn't be risky-rewarding enough for the investors, it wouldn't be cheap enough for the customers, and it wouldn't be nationalistic enough for the nationalists (because my suppliers would mostly be in various Asian countries). There are many challenges which may be overcome, and most of them have nothing to do with the part where we make stuff.

Optimism:
I'd love to start an electronics manufacturing business in the US. Hook me up with customers and investors who want it enough to pay the bills, and I'll totally make it happen.

 

[Luke42]

It better not be the computer chips they are getting from China. Chinese computer chips send everything you do back to Beijing.

That's not really possible for most chips.

An SMD resistor can't possibly do that. A logic gate can't do that Most microcontrollers are used in applications where they can't do that.

There are only a few special accelerator/communications chips where calling home or being backdoored are technically possible.

You can learn a great deal by opening the nearest electronic device to you, and googling the numbers you see on the chips. For each chip, you'll should able to find a "datasheet" which is a manual describing what the chip is, what it does, and how to use it when designing an electronic device.

Most chips cannot possibly be backdoored or call home. There are a few special cases, but they are special cases.

 

[TheLastStarfighter]

Honestly I'm not sure, am I safer if I'm being tracked by an American company / government over being tracked by a Chinese government?
Snowden raised so serious concerns about what the US does on tracking and the US also imprisons without charges some people ( terrorists), assassinates without convictions (also terrorists overseas). How hard would it be for the US government to make look like I'm a terrorist and disappear me?
Facebook and Google track my online activity then use AI to manipulate my thoughts so that they can sell my attention (see social dilemma on netflix) to any bidder including foreign advisories who would like to foment civil war.
So am I in more danger if the Chinese install nefarious software? So far the Chinese haven't done anything to me, indeed they have done less to me than my own government and domestic corporations have done.
Will they? I don't know.

I doubt China will do much to you directly, but you don't live in Hong Kong of course.

 

[TheLastStarfighter]

I believe Elon when he says the goal of Tesla is to transition the world to sustainable transportation. So intellectual property theft would not be a worry for Tesla since that would mean someone else is trying to do the same thing. (Indeed Tesla makes it's patents available for anyone to use).

The China boogeyman fear is irrational, Chinese culture and history is very introverted and holds a long history of foreign interference. Look at it form their perspective. England once fought a war and forced them to allow their citizens to become drug addicts. America invaded and occupied portions of their cities of Shanghai and Tiajin for nearly 100 years. Japan invaded, no need to mention what they did. Can you blame them for not allowing a modern invasion of foreign corporations that use the country and it's people but holds it's knowledge to itself so that when it's done with China it can just leave and China has nothing but pollution.
Tesla has a fully foreign owned factory in China and that is a first, probably because they are the first to not try to screw the Chinese.

China boogieman is not irrational. They have openly stated their goals of control of 75% of the global economy by 2025. It's not conspiracy stuff. And Tesla has the first foreign-owned car factory in China because it was previously illegal. A concession for Trump easing the trade war was to allow foreign car companies entry. Electric car companies were allowed access first in 2018, all manufacturers will be allowed in 2022. Your theory of Chinese victims is baseless.

 

[Dids]

China boogieman is not irrational. They have openly stated their goals of control of 75% of the global economy by 2025. It's not conspiracy stuff. And Tesla has the first foreign-owned car factory in China because it was previously illegal. A concession for Trump easing the trade war was to allow foreign car companies entry. Electric car companies were allowed access first in 2018, all manufacturers will be allowed in 2022. Your theory of Chinese victims is baseless.

Do you know why Hong Kong is a separate government from the rest of China?

 

[Crissa]

They have openly stated their goals of control of 75% of the global economy by 2025.

I'll need a cite on that.

But if China raised their GDP per capita to the US's... They would have over 80 trillion in GDP. The rest of the world only has about 65 trillion. So that's pretty close.

That's not a threat. That's a hope. Can you imagine 1.4 billion more people buying iPhones and playing Xbox and watching Marvel movies at the same prices we are?

If they did, the US's economy would balloon.

...concession for Trump easing the trade war was to allow foreign car companies entry. Electric car companies were allowed access first in 2018, all manufacturers will be allowed in 2022.

I'll need a cite on that, too. China invested a huge amount in 2007-2010 into building an industry to attract foreign investment in their EV market. It wasn't walled off. Tesla has been selling cars there since the beginning. They didn't have the money for the Gigafactory until 2018 and the success of the model 3 in the US.

-Crissa

 

[MEDICALJMP]

Do you know why Hong Kong is a separate government from the rest of China?

it has to do with the repatriation treaty between the United Kingdom and China. Hong Kong was previously a British colony after the a first Opium War and on a 99 year lease.HK was returned to China in 97 or 98 with the proviso that it be self-governing (keeping their Western-style democracy). It was called a One Country, 2 government policy (if I am not mistaken). Lots of Hong Kongers fled before repatriation knowing the Communist government would eventually change their minds. See current events.